Category: the Rant Board
Now, this is by no means directed at everyone or even you, the person reading this page right now. This is just an observation I've been mulling over for a good bit of time.
Having attended a few camps for the blind, as well as frequenting the Zone here and there, I have noticed a horrifyingly similar pattern: A lot of blind people are really, really awkward.
I'm not talking in the "Oh, he laughs at inappropriate things" or "She wears clothes that don't match" awkward. I'm talking the kind of awkward that involves "I don't think he realizes people can see him rocking back and forth in his chair like that" or "The only topic she knows how to discuss with people is her extensive research on Elvis Presley" awkward. Or even the "I'm not sure she knows how to use body wash correctly" type of awkward. Or, finally, the "He seems to think telling people about his back acne and various other medical conditions is good conversation" kind of awkward.
If you find yourself in one of the above categories, please don't be offended. Don't be hurt or feel singled out or anything like that. Don't do anything, in fact, but stop the behavior. Please. You're the making the rest of us look bad by perpetuating a stereotype and you're making everyone around you uncomfortable.
Remember: If what you say or do results in the person or people around you stopping whatever they're saying and going "... Uhm ...." and seeming to be at a loss for a reply, chances are, you are not being socially appropriate. Plan accordingly and realize that just because you and two other people you know think it's normal, there is a small chance it might not actually be appropriate in public.
Thank you.
Very well put. I couldn't agree more.
In other news:
....
There are plenty of oddballs amongst the sighted, who do much worse than the things you mentioned in your post. Why not just accept the fact that the world is full of all kinds of people? Worry only about your behavior and you'll have no problem, enough with this fear that other people's behavior will make you look bad just because they're not like you.
Worrying about what people say and do online is pointless, everybody knows the net is a perfect environment for all kinds of stuff.
This is how I see it.
Not much to say regarding the examples you mentioned as most of my interaction with the blind has taken place on this site.
I completely agree with what's been written above. Well stated.
I myself have noticed that many if not most blind people also have some kind of a mental ishue that has been brot on by the way they were raised, Meaning that they would overly protected therefore they act imature, or as tey get older, as if they have a mental ishue.
Ah, no, in this situation I'm talking about the real world. The reason I'm chastising blind people is because - well, this is a site for those with visual impairments. We are bonded as a group in that way.
To post 3...If someone sighted does something completely "abnormal" they get shunned. So, while I don't say everyone has to act and talk the same I can see where post 1 is coming from. If you want to behave in a socially unexceptable manner you have to be willing to accept the consequences. Unfortunately for those of us who care about what the public thinks (at least to a degree) the blind population is so minimal that if one blind person does something all sighted people who are witnesses to the behavior think automatically that this is a "blind behavior" and there for judge any other blind individual as the same. It isn't really the sighted populations fault as they're simply aren't enough blind people to expose every (or even a large majority) sighted person on a daily basis. While this isn't something that is by any means true it is a fact of life, and we can not change that unless the blind community (some good, responsible, mature, active blind people) get some good media...I'm not talking about that blind couple in the UK who got media coverage a few years ago. So, because of this sighted people will judge the rest of us on what one person does or does not do. And, another natural consequence is that socially unacceptable behavior on one blind person's part is at least a part of the problem surrounding blind unemployment, ETC. So, whether you like it or not, socially unacceptable behavior on one blind person's part effects the entire blind community as a whole, and right or not it's a fact of life.
How do you use body wash?
JK. I really think that as stated above sighted people have their own set of un social behavior, so what needs to be done is sighted and blind people need to learn to care for their neighbor. If you notice something that is not good, see if you can find a way to help the person, because she or he my not know it is not exceptible. I guess the social aware blind could help the social unaware blind, not just say a blanket "stop that" Stop what?" They really may not know. Also strange as it might seem if Elvis's history became hip, well everyone would try to discuss it even if they didn't know squat about it. Smile.
Peace.
oh, just realized, I ment I agree with the origional poste, not rask's poast.
That's just complicating things for yourself though.
Why carry on your shoulders the burden of what some sighted people think about those who aren't like you? That's like asking for permission to live your life the way you think is best.
I wouldn't even make a big deal out of a stereotype because they all work the same. Some people are too ignorant to realize that being different is a paart of one's personality, and these are the fools you shouldn't even give a second thought to. Why go from place to place trying to prove to society that that stereotype doesn't apply to you? You're going to be dealing with a lot of stupid people out there who won't understand that.
It's like they're saying blind people don't have personalities,they don't have any talents or skills to set them apart from each other. It's stupid, only fools would reason like this. And you can go back and forth with them, attempting to convince them just because someone gave them a wrong impression. There's no point fueling yourself up with such nonsense when you can use that energy doing your own thing. Why behave in a way that makes it seem as though your value as a human being is threatened? If some blind people act a certain way let them, and go on with your life. It's how it is with all groups, big or small.
I think it's a better idea dealing with people individually, being myself without worrying how my behavior will affect others I'll never meet, or if theirs will affect me somehow. It's too easy and convenient to say I didn't get a job because of that blind guy who was seen spinning on his toe in the middle of the street.
This is how I'd avoid a stereotype.
boy do I know some of those people. I actually had to ask a friend to stop discussing his ongoing health struggles, because he would describe his various ailments at random, and with whomever he wished.
Whether I like the idea or not the facts are that other's behaviors effect what people will think of me when first meeting me. That my friends is facing reality. And this very thing is part of the reason we're taught to write proper resumes, dress properly for enterviews, ETC...Good empressions, and whether you want to care what others think or not, what others think will effect the rest of your life in one way or another. So, face facts, you can say I don't care...But the facts are that whether you care or not you are effected, and helping others to either see the truth (if possible) or helping others present a better empression is the way to start getting ahead.
First, I have to say that it is a real pleasure to see a board topic handled in an adult mature manner around here.
Second, While I hate sterotypes and what it does to the group of people who are being stereotyped, I think we all do it to one degree or another. I've ben the victim of stereotyping at various times in my life. The first time I was really aware of it happened when I was in the hospital. I was rushed in through the ER. After a couple of days in a regular room, the nurse said to me: "I'm so glad you aren't like those blind people I see who..." She went down a list of the stereotypical behaviors the had observed. To post one, I don't know if you were born blind or not, but I was. I know I'll take a bit of heat for this next comment, but I honestly believe that people who were born blind don't have that visual sensory input to realize when something they do or say is inappropriate, and in general, society is reluctant to discuss issues with us when we do or say something inappropriate.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Lou
hi,
I never poste but thought I'd throw something in. To the last poste, I completely agree. I was born blind and whilst I do not rock, many social nuances are, are best, mystirious to me. Many of my social encounters are carried out using a set of algorythmic steps I worked out from observing others, such that no one or very very few people actually no who I am, but this is the way i avoid the problem of being left in social hot water. Many blind people do not use their heads to avoid the problems of their backgrounds and this is where they end up.
Thank you Miss M. This is disturbingly prevalent among blind people. We're not talking about normal eccentricities here; all of us have those, blind, sighted, or otherwise. We're talking about a friend who visited me once, jumping around and flailing his arms in the air as we spoke, while I wondered if all of my furniture would be safe throughout the duration of the visit. I didn't expect it from this guy, and I was shocked by it to the point that I didn't even know what to say. We're talking about constantly groping the eyes in public. We're talking about those with very, very little street sense because they were overprotected. These people can all change, but as long as they don't, they make it a real battle for the rest of us to gain acceptance as functioning citizens. I never thought I would ever rant like this but honestly ...
I agree with what Lou said. I've been blind since birth as well, and had no idea rocking was "awkward" as the first post puts it. I was never rocked as a child, so I did it to soothe myself. for the record, sighted kids do it too...for the very reason I mentioned. I know that now, after years of being told I "wasn't a god damn rocking chair". in short, next time you think about getting onto people for doing such things, maybe stop and think about why they do whatever it is. then, if you feel so inclined, help educate them about what's acceptable instead of griping to others and not helping to change whatever it is.
I was told a lot of sighted people who see a blind person rocking or poking their eyes or whatever don't ask them to stop because a lot of sighted people have the "Oh ... they're blind so ..." kind of attitude, so of course those blind people don't get to know that those kind of things aren't generally accepted as "normal".
You guys are all doing so wonderfully with this thread.
This point has been brought up by a few of you but I want to say it again in a different way. The issue here is not simple eccentricities or oddities - if you like collecting giraffe-themed objects for example, that's just a cute quirk of your personality.
The problem does come with the awkward laughing, the rocking, the eye groping, the inappropriate topics in public. A lot of it comes from two places: The offending awkward person not being observant or sensitive of their social surroundings, and the people that care about the offending awkward person. The person is not taking the time to be mature and consider the feelings of those around them, and their loved ones are not stepping up and explaining to them how or why something they do is not a good idea.
I have, on many an occasion, had to out and tell someone who was blind or visually impaired, "Dude, that's awkward/creepy/not even remotely appropriate." They were understandably hurt, but later on would end up thanking me because stopping or altering the behavior led to them making and keeping more friends.
If your born blind I think it falls to the parents to let their child know in a gentle manner (at least at first) what isn't acceptable. I was never permitted to rock as a child...Mom would simply tell me no...It doesn't look right. I'm not saying my Mom was perfect at such things, but she honestly tried. I was never sheltered, and my actions were explained by their consequences...I agree with education, but there are those who simply don't care.
OK, time for confession. When I was in college, I had a pretty significant dandriff problem and didn't realize it till one of my readers told me. This was on a Friday. I next saw her on the following Monday. We both wanted to talk about it. Her to appologize, but me to thank her for her honesty. I think the kind of honesty we're talking about is rare among friends and family and society in general. I think that people's good intentions just aren't helping us in the long run. I know I've learned to retreat into my shell when I'm not sure, since I've committed my share of social blunders.
Lou
I think anyone retreats when they're uncertain, and all of us have issues that we've had to work through (or are still working through). There isn't anything wrong with that in my opinion as long as once your aware of the issue you try. Trying can make all the difference. I have an issue too; it's embarrassing, but here it is. I said my Mom wasn't perfect, and she wasn't...Most children first learn to hold their utensels in a fist, and that is what I did, but sighted children see later that this isn't how their examples do it and so they copy their parents/guardians/siblings...However, I didn't realize until I was in my senior year of highschool that my manners with utensels had room for improvement...Then is when I was told by the school for the blind I was attending for a short time. When I realized it I wanted to change it, but they wouldn't show me what I was doing wrong. Instead they criticized, and when I was unable to change it(do to not knowing how) they told my Mom that I was uncooperative. It wasn't until I met my husband that I was able to discover my error, and I still have to work at remembering the correct way to hold my utensels, but the point is now that I know what to do I'm trying. I don't want to look "blind" to my completely sighted peers...As I have no other blind individual in my life (accept for those I speak with online). Social errors occur no matter who you are, but you have to be willing to improve. I'm not saying that you have to be what every one else in society is...I will not change my beliefs for anyone, but learning to be socially acceptable is an important part to survival and success.
Well I'm gonna put a totally different spin on this, and sorry to Post 1, but I would say don't hold your breath for people to change. Here's what I meant. I've got family, and, since I became a Christian, fellow Christians I consider to be really really out there. They may not rock back and forth, but they talk as though Harry Potter andthe Lord Ofthe Rings were some sort of cultic afterfair. They're always waiting forthe sky to fall, or whatever, and my daughter was actually exposed to people bragging about burning books. Not saying to Fahrenheit 451 proportions, but I considered it something for her to stay away from, even though I know to some extent she's experimented with some of their beliefs. My brother who is a marine biologist has the same reaction as I. And yes, there's plenty of times I feel like I wouldn't want to be seen with them, or even think they're somewhat scary, at least in numbers. Elvis or acid collection? I'll take that over constant politial and doom-and-gloom stuff you can get from some of them. But they'll never be any different, the challenge when being with them is probably mine. They have no problems with visual cues, but rather like being told their actions aren't what others see as normal. That way they're on the elite side, I guess. To that end, I try and ignore their antics. I suggest the author of Post 1 do the same. In real life I was very frustrated attempt+ to convince some nut jobs I knew n to liquidate all _! Assets ten years ago, and you know that's all they talked about: Y2k this, Y2k that, until January 1st, 2000 of course.
So while I too would be annoyed by Post 1's experiences I daresay I'd take them over some extremist types. Not only that, I've worked with sighted software people who gave the homeless a run for their money in the Bo department, although that becomes a health hazard and not just a social issue. There's a reason your eyes water and your stomach's upset in that environment. But ... just a little perspective
I think a lot of it comes down to the parents. When I was five or six, my parents made sure I knew that rocking and eye poking didn't look normal. LOL, my dad even put pepper on my hands once to keep me from poking my eyesl. Seemed a bit harsh at the time, but it worked. And I totally get what the original poster is talking about; I know a lot of blind people that fit into that category and do the "blindisms."
You know, as this thread is going on, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be too forward to start a "Q and A" thread for people on this site who want to ask questions about sighted etiquette - like how to hold utensils. See, that's mostly what I'm talking about: It's not for lack of wanting to know, it's lack of people taking the time to explain rather than mock, ignore or criticize.
Thoughts?
Ms. M, that's an interesting idea. I used to be a rehabilitation teacher, and I was fascinated by the kinds of questions that other blind people would ask. Not fascinated in the sense of being condescending, but rather, in the sense that I hadn't thought of some issues that my students raised to me.
If you look through the Daily Living Boards, you might find many issues raised.
Lou
I think it's a great idea. :) I'd certainly be one who wouldn't have any problems helping, LOL, and asking. *grin*
one thing I do that a guy I didn't know at the time pointed out that made me look blind was playing with my hair. I was at the nass cars and this guy who was sitting behind us lend forwoard adn asked me if I was born blind or if i had lost it at a later time. I turned to him in shock and asked him how he knew I was blind. Most people don't until someone tells them, I look at them when we talk and even talk with my hands in all, lots of people forget unless they make it a point in not forgetting. Even my own sister forgets. so anyways, he said I was playing with my hair and his step dauter was blind and she did the same thing in the same way. I don't know if this makes me look odd or what, no one ever said anything about it. I do it when i am nervice mostly, but I cut my beautiful long hair off a couple of months ago and now I don't play with it any more.
That one's odd, in that I've heard of several people doing that; it's a nervous habit is all. The African population - don't remember which tribe - actually had a stone called a Worry Stone for this, better than clenching the teeth - something a large segment of the population does with damaging results. While there are things a blind person does that sighted people don't do, I think the whole thing gets quite overblown. My father used to never understand why I, and apparently other blind people, walk up to the edge of the street and put the cane crossways over the edge in the gutter - not in anyone's way, but the distance from curb edge is at least six inches less than your average sighted person. Until getting on this site I didn't know eye poking was real; thought it was an urban myth because it sounds *painful*. But then again, I still find myself rocking if in private, deep in concentration or something, although try and prevent when in public. That after having taken my fair share of "beatin's" for it ... Neither the physical violence nor my own mental attempts at curbing it really did. To be fair, the physical part probably assisted me in defending myself in scraps I got into as boys often will, and assisted in preventing me from doing the same on my own daughter. I just think this hand gets way way overplayed ... Many groups, women African Americans and others, have dealt with similar stereotyping, so I think it's probably something you just try and control like a noxious chemical compound, rather than change. After all even animals do it: a black wolf born into a gray herd is usually doomed. We're just not that different.
I play with my hair too, but it is a family trait. Many of the siblings on Mom's side do it. None of us do it to an extreme, but on occasion we do it, but it is not a blindism in my case. Other than that, I agree with Brooke in what she said, as it closely relates to my experience too. Parents have to show and tell you what does not look right socially. As for the Q&A, I would participate for sure.
My thoughts on the Q&A:
It should be data-only, and here's what I mean:
Once a blind guy asked me about the shirt being tucked in, and my response was simply when / what it means. I just said if I was outside grilling on the patio, maybe a few beers had been opened, maybe smoking cigar, generally having a guys night when the girls are gone, the shirt might be untucked or, when I was younger and all my friends were doing it, perhaps nonexistent. Otherwise I generally kept it tucked in. Well all he'd heard before was some sanctimonious response about 'we always ...' and not by another fellow.
When my daughter was little - sometime in grade school I think, - she came home and asked what the f word meant. So I just up and gave her the dictionary definition of the word plus context, e.g. used in anger, often during fights, stuff like that. Then there's the problem of being caught using it in the garage but that's another topic ...
So definitely data sans opinion is good, and context is important. That and there are gender and age-specific data. But important to note that while some things may be upsetting, they may not be helped. I, for one, have totally unexpressive eyes. They look fine, but to someone who can see and doesn't know me very well, it can be not cool. I've been presented with that frequently, and while I understand their view, I can't change that. Then there's the cost to benefit ratios for people, e.g. this isn't the only thing one is doing, and while tucking a shirt in may be simple enough, there may be something else that's enough of a time issue that one won't squeeze it into a busy life / fully occupied mind. Just things to consider when attempting to change anything personal, not just things that fall within this topic.
Again, all of this information is really interesting. I actually play with my hair as a nervous habit quite often, and I've been doing my best to curb that for a while now. I also bite my nails, but I think mostly I just need to be doing something with my hands to think.
You're all welcome to keep this thread going, and I encourage anyone "lurking" here and not posting to join in on the conversation. I've never seen this topic so well discussed without someone flying off the handle.
I'm going to go start a thread in the Daily Living section on this style of topic now. :)
My cousin who is completely sighted also plays (or did play) with her hair. I don't think that one is a blindism anymore than me biting my nails...Which I've been trying to stop because it too doesn't look good. :)
I find the idea of some sort of a blind or inappropriate behavior Q&A to be interesting.
I think the problem really is that it's hard to get objective advice on what we're doing wrong sometimes, dandroff, inappropriate clothing or habits, what looks odd and what doesn't. I don't think we have to become perfect. I am aware I hold utensels incorrectly but I just do not see a reason for changing that behavior, at least it is quite a ways down on my list of priorities, if I find a reason to work on it, I will, but until then I'll just hold my fork like I always have, even if some people find it odd.
I am more concerned with being in decent shape, holding a respectable job, doing well at school and dressing attractively.
I'd try to avoid any more awkward social gestures though, but the problem is that it is hard to tell someone, esepcailly a friend, that something he or she does is really weird and inappropriate, it is embaressing to bring up and one is worried it could be taken as an offense.
We can be unique and have our little kwerks, we do not always represent stereotypes, it's like saying Jewish people should never be rich or Chinese people should avoid being good at math, may be there are some things that distinguish us from others and we have to behave acceptably for our sake, rather than for the big picture. Being blind is a hindreance to me and, yes, it dose pose issues. I am afraid to even try to dance because I feel self conscious and super awkward, I hate having to ask someone to help me find a bath room at a restaurant, especially back when I was in the dating process, it felt totally uncomfortable. We have our priorities and what we need is someone who is unbiast and onest and can tell us what we're doing wrong and then it is up to us to decide if it is worth working hard to correct or if it is insignificant enough to be put on the to-do list.
Wholehearted agreement. I could work on learning to redo my signature, an enormous chore to learn to begin with as a boy / one that caused much grief, but the IRS never seems to complain about it, they and all the bill collectors are more than happy to accept my money so that's no priority. Plus people who generally get on others about any form of etiquette are basically denying etiquette's purpose; to cause people to get along in a civil manner.
Plus, what is that word some have used on here? 'blind-ism?" Not one for political correctness, but consider the irony: We call it 'racism' when one either has negative feelings toward, or wants to change, a particular ethnic group. It's been called 'sexism' when women are either denied entry into something, or told they can't be emotional or otherwise expressive of who they are; try telling your teenage daughter to can the drama and get to the point - see what happens. Anyway, I'm none to quibble over words, but the irony here regarding people turning the term 'blindism' on either themselves or the rest of us is too good to miss ...
I think the Q&A post is a good idea.
I agree about the q and a thing.
and about the blind habits well I have been kicked out of a store because the owner did not want "blind man" in her store, because she had a problem with someone coming in there and breaking a really expensive china set.
also I have had people put me down because I am blind.
Q and A sounds like a good idea to me too. I have kicked most of my bad habits, but one that still might be considered as a "Blindism" is literally folding in half when I want to sleep in church. I'll be sitting up straight, both feet on the flor, and just put my arm across my legs and put my head down on it. I've done it in school a few times to, mostly in asemblies and my guitar class where we don't have desks so there is enough room infront of you to do that kind of thing. I've tryed to find a more comfortable way to just kind of doze off, but I always come back to this one.
Very true... I think it is crucial to act appropriately in all types of environment. I am famous around people to being a very normal girl. People forget all the time I am blind. I've been told that I am a role model to many older to me who can see because how I act.
From the time I was little my mother would always point out the social awkwardnesses of my blind peers when out in public..."So-andso won't stop poking their eyes and rocking", or "So-and-so and her friend are all over each other like they're in heat." Constant reminders of their bad behaviors made me realize that blind people can act pretty embarrassing if not made aware of their socially awkward. And those people who did that in my childhood still act like that to this day.
Ugh, to the original poster I know what you mean about people talking about their medical problems unnecessarily. I talked to someone online (not on the zone, by the way, but a friend of a friend) who was blind and found it necessary to tell me all about the discomforts she felt during her period. Needless to say I blocked her and never talked to her again. I'm not claiming to be perfect, but I was taught well when it comes to basic social interactions. I never rocked back and forth, I did have a bad habit of eye poking when I was young but that was more for comfort than anything else which is why it was hard to break. I'd say the only area I would be considered socially awkward in is that I'm extremely shy, but hey, that's a trait a lot of sighted people have too. It just seems that more people think it's totally out of place for a blind person to be an introvert. It kind of makes sense, because blind people have to put themselves out there and expose vulnerabilities more than a sighted person does. For example, a blind person walks down the street and realizes they're lost, what do they do? Stop a random person and ask for directions. This is not my cup of tea at all. I respect people who have enough confidence, or self-defense skills for that matter, to go around doing that, but I personally feel threatened by it, plus my fear of talking to people I don't know can be really intense. I know however that I really have no choice but to try to grin and bear it, because in order to be a successful blind person one has to put themselves out there. It sucks because it totally goes against my personality, but I guess I'll learn one day.
Turtle, if you look in the Daily Living section, I've got a huge thread going there where many topics regarding blindness and independence are being discussed. If you want tips on anything, feel free to post there.
some times I wish some other mothers would do that as well, point out these mistakes, but they will not because you don't do that to a disabled person, or what the hell it now... Seriously, some of these people just must learn better.
My councilor in high school and i discussed rocking she had a hypothisis on that blind people often do it to stemulate there ceribral cortex, sighted people often look around them to do that, but blind people do not have that option. I try not to rock in public sometimes though when i am waiting for the bus i tend to slowly rock back and forth but i know some sighted people who do that. I poke my eyes when i am stressed but usually am pretty good about not doing it in public. I jump about and flale my arms in my own house, but thats my house and i only do it when i am physically high strung and need to move about a bit. I hold my fork and spoon with two fingers on top and on the bottom, i know the correct way but my hand hurts when i try it and i lose control of my silver ware. and i make more of a mess. I tend to hover over the plate when i eat but i was slapped as a kid for getting food on myself. i play with my hair when i am stressed but sighted people do that too. there are some things sighted people do that other sighted people fail to mention to us as they nail us for doing the exact behavior. Keep that in mind the next time your blind friend is right by you rocking as he is standing there. I try to if i notice it simply say your rocking while standing arent you worried about falling off the curb? As for asking directions, i often find it easier since people are going to offer to ask for guidence. I am very bad at crossing streets and i often fear wreckless drivers. thats most of my problem. Downtown i get help getting around anywhere down there because there are a lot of drunk and high people whom have attempted to take me for my money. as for people who cant shower. let them live in a shelter with sixty or seventy people they will learn. Me myself and i if i am going out i shower but if i am sitting at home thats another story. I do a lot of stuff at home that i wouldnt really do in public unless i was really out of it. Yes, i talk about bipolar a lot but that is because as one who has bipolar disorder i often have to educate especially the ones who go i am bipolar as if it identifies them like saying i am blue eyes, no. no no you have bipolar disorder you are not bipolar. But a lot of mentally ill people do that. More than most realyze. I personally don't know why but once someone taught me to not do it i try and teach others. Often times i try to follow a conversation that is going on around me when i have input or i just don't talk no point in it. some of my "blindisms" will probably never fade entirely, but i try to limmit them to my home.
I am usually socially appropriate just like the sighties, and even around them or other persons with disabilities. Nothing irks me more than people having extremely weird social behaviors. Living at a school for the blind (I hate it there!!), is uncomfortable, seeing as 90% of the people there are mentally retarded and act socially inappropriate. I dislike it when people touch me and feel all over me and ask me, "Who's this?" My friend (don't take offense, he's a guy), tried to touch my hand and squeeze it. Now come on, bitches. If you feel someone and they don't want to answer you, then stop fucking trying to try to "date" them. LOL. Just an example... Although, it's okay if it's certain people, but don't touch me all over the place. If you just say something, then I will most likely respond back to you.
Macy
I've always gone to public school and I thank sweet <whoever is out there> that I have. That said, I have met many of, who I like to call, questionable blind. The "questionable blind" feel the need to make beeping noises, odd movements, and, yes friends, the touching. I've observed a lack of boundary control with this unfortunate group. Now, what do we do about it? That is hard to answer, for it is a loaded question. Is it all a part of the human condition? Is it a lack of education? The answer to both questions is "perhaps."
I feel the best thing to do is point out to the person that they are acting like a twink!
I think a lot of it has to do with the parents of blind people.
Blind people often start these habbits when they are really young, and many parents don't tell them that it's wrong or looks silly. so they just keep doing it.. and it becomes even harder to stop. you have to nip it in the bud at the first opportunity.
and what people have been saying is totally true. if sighted people become used to seeing blind people in clothes that don't match, rocking back and forth or dirty, they start to think that most blind people are al like that, and are surprised when they meet someone who isn't.
I get told that I'm not like most blind people all the time, and I hate it, because it means that most blind people are different but in a bad way, like, sighted people are surprised that I can get around on my own, have good dress sense and that I can carry on a normal conversation about all kinds of things to do with politics, the world and current affairs.
Looks matter. to most blind people, the fact that sighted people can see them doesn't seem to register as being important. but of course it is important. Sighted people judge on first impressions, and a big part of first impressions to them is the way you look and your manner.
Let's face it, who's going to get the job? the person who is presentable and polite, or the person who rocks back and forth continually, wears clothes that don't match, and seems to be self centred?
I am also told that I am more well adjusted than most blind people. As for the job thing, it shouldn't matter that much if you hum softly to yourself, or screech like a parot, as long as you get the job done. I have met people who have mental disorders who hold down jobs.
it matters if they are in a job where they have to interact with people who don't act like that.
It matters in a job that requires team skills.
It matters in a job that any member of the public might see you doing and associate with your company.
face facts. companies aren't going to change, because it works for them how they hire people now. so socially challenged people have to.
Then why is it that I see people mumbling, wiggling around, and obviously not showering stay in a job. Why don't these oh so perfect company managers do something about it?
it depends very much where you work of course.
workplaces that hire a lot of disabled people will accept people with their little eccentricities, but most of the time they don't pay as well. then there are the few people who are just so intelligent that a company can't afford to lose them, but this is very few.
if you want a wellpaying job, you have to be normal, simple as that. I want a better job than mindless manual labour, I thought everyone aspired to that.
But, what is normal? We seem to have this socially accepted term of "normal", but it's such a relative term. For example, one might consider humming to themselves, playing with their fingers, and tapping their feet normal, and another person may consider this odd. I know I may not have explained myself here as well as I could have, but this so-called "normal" behavior really discourages a sense of individuality. As long as your behavior is not harming anybody else in any way, what's so bad about it? It is up to the person to whom the actions affect to decide whether they are harmful or not. It shouldn't be up to the standards of society.
That's right, and standards differ whereever you are. Who are we to say what is normal?
you're forgetting trhat I'm not saying how people should perceive anything. what I am pointing out is how people do perceive.
and my point about employment is, is that it's up to the business to define what's normal, not the general public and not the workers.
therefore, it's important that blind people know just how they look to sighted people.
I agree with that, and I also agree on what is considered "normal".
Normal is defined by the majority.
In some countries, arranged marriages are normal. In other countries, having a glass of wine with dinner is normal even under the age of 16. In America, it's appropriate to dress formally for work, smell nicely, and conduct yourself according to business policies. Socially, it's defined by whoever you're with, but generally what's been discussed here fits those norms.
You can question and justify all you want, but it's not going to change the fact that this particular topic's opinion is that rocking, humming loudly, twitching, poking ones eyes, smelling horribly and oversharing personal information is inappropriate.
"If if's and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Fucken christmas."
Bottem line is that by standards set by employers and by moste of society as a hole, those actions are not classed as normal or sightly or representative of good social skill. Thus, If one isn't aware of how one appears/is not willing to change, they won't (normally) get as far in the world as it is today. People tend to play the victum way to much on these issues because its easier to shift the blaim on to someone else than it is to make changes that will open opertunities and advance ones social/economic quality of life. Sure, its sad that one's opertunities are capped because of the way they are viewed by those that matter. Face facts, when anyone applies for a job (in these economic times particularly) there is great compotition for that verry same position. Employers come into an interview with a blind individual with countless misconceptions that you will have to overcome with out adding all the above mensioned social red flags.
I'd also like to mension that talking with many sighted people that have said "you're not like all the other blind people i've seen or hurd of" is this, many of them only ever see one, possibly two or three blind people before interacting with me. This seemes to hold in many situations I've been in after all, there are verry few blind people in the world in relation to the amount of "normals." There for, it's logical to say that the things you do could impact someone else the "normal" person comes into contact with later. If an interviewer for some fortun five hundred company or even a regular old company had a bad interview experience with a blind individual in the past, it is more likely you would be judged poorly based on that persons actions. I know of people who have gotten hired at companies and have had to undoo damage some socially inept person caused. So, in short, things you doo can and will impact with positive or negative consiquences. Is this fair? Not really. Do we all doo it, yes. We have all tried an eating astablishment and when presented with a choice of eating at another franchised location haven't taken the deal up because of past experiences. Choices like these are in human nature so, I ask why people set these types of outcomes up for them selves when there in controll. Technology has diminished or broken down several of the moste potent barriors to work, why not break down those we have controll over? Why enforce damageing misconceptions? We are our own best representation and I can't see any logical reason to represent horibly.
Just my thoughts, for what they are worth. I rushed threw this a bit, so if there are any glareing errors that impact its reading/understanding, I apologise.
I do agree that there is a line between being who you are as a person, and just being unacceptable. However, I think that what is acceptable and what is not depends greatly on the situation at hand. It is important to look and act appropriately for a job interview, for example, and it is important to eat appropriately in a formal restaurant. However, if you are in a casual situation, I really don't see why so many people are uptight about how a person looks/acts. I'm sorry, but at the park, at the mall, and at school, I dress how I want. I make sure my clothes fit correctly, and that my hair is clean and brushed. I shower almost every day, and wear a full outfit. That's quite enough for me. If people choose not to communicate with me because of my lack of make-up, fancy hair style, and fancy clothes, well, they are nobody I want to be friends with anyway, if they can't look past the looks.
One thing I do agree with you on, however, is the discussing of personal illnesses, and other such things that are really not meant to be discussed in many situations. It is different, of course, if the person to whom you are communicating with about these things is okay with this, and if it is in a setting where other people won't hear some unwanted information. The reason I agree with you on this is because most people are bothered by this kind of conversation. Still, in a casual setting, in most cases, you don't have to listen if you don't want to, just as you don't have to look at someone if you don't like the way they look in most casual settings. I also think, however, that there are plenty of sighted people who have this issue as well.
Oh yeah, but with sighted people the association is different. with blind people, if their clothes or person is dirty, people most often feel sorry or pity for the blind person, but with the sighted person who is exactly the same, they get angry or annoyed.
it's the association that's the key here. I don't want people to feel pity or sorry for me when they see me or any other blind person, because it's wrong, so I get annoyed when a blind person will trigger that reaction.
makeup and style aren't what I'm talking about, i'm talking about neetness, being clean, wearing clothes that at least go together and looking like you at least know what to do with a hairbrush and toothbrush and toothpaste.
Definitely agree with Striker. He hit the nail on the head. Wish more blind ppl would follow his advice and think like him. It would make life easier and more productive for the rest of us.
Dream, you listened to what was being said here but i'm not sure you truely got it, We're (or at least I'm) not advicateing the use of make up and all that, I'm advicateing being socially acceptable. Wareing makeup or not really doesn't influence this in casual situations, many sighted people do and don't. I'm talking about being extremely unkempt, extensive blindism issues, and other social problems that have been covered here. There are many ways of dressing well in moste situations and you seem to have a good grasp on that but, I truely don't think you're getting to the underlying meaning here, you're so focused on one shallow facit rather than looking at it all for what its worth.
Sorry to spasificly call you out but, I'm just trying to advicate others and my view here.
It is true that there are some people that are to focused on fassion but not all sighted people are like that, and one isn't required to go all out to be consitered socially acceptable. If I could be so bold, sometimes its the non apperiance issues but the behaverial that do the moste damage but, its still emportant to make an effort at the apereance. People instantly make snap judgements based on someones looks, just as people make instant judgements about voice, personality and so on and so forth. Everyone judges, I do it, you doo it and anyone who lies is bullshitting here, its all in how one reacts to there judgement calls. So while it would be nice if blind people wern't judged by visual standards for some, its just not something that will change and as we are the extreme minority, some amount of consession to sighted standards *IS A REQUIREMENT TO EFFECTIVELY COMUNICATE AND INTERACT WITH SIGHTED PEOPLE.* I used to hate this fact but hateing it does as much good as hateing thefact its going to be hot out side while knowingly dressing in full winter gear, *CONSESSION (to a degree) CAN'T BE TOTALLY AVOIDED.* and its extremely imature and irresponsible to insinuate that we force people to accept us as we are with out helping them do so.
Sorry about potential errors, I rushed a bit.
piece,
James.
For me, the bottom line on this topic is post 44. If more blind people did act acceptably in public, I would never be asked if I was able to dress myself.
I do agree that we are judged by how we appear. I do however, feel that we are often judged unfairly. Sitting around and bitching about this will not change reality and we must keep that in mind. We, as blind people, are acting just like any typical minority. Shall we choose a leader? Shall we march in the streets? No sir! I believe the best thing we can do is blend in with the rest of society. Yes, it sucks, but I dare you to come up with an alternative.
Striker, I agree with your point about social acceptability. My appologies for making my entire post about fashion. I still stand by what I said earlier, that some people overemphasize this. Having said that, there is a fine line, as I mentioned above, between being yourself and being socially unacceptable, and unfortunately, it is the standards of society that determines where this fine line lies. The only thing I don't agree with here is that there are sighted people who are socially unacceptable as well. The only difference, as someone mentioned earlier, is that if a blind person is found to be socially awkward or unacceptable, many people assume it is because of the disability, whereas if a sighted person does the same thing, the blame is placed entirely on the person. Unfortunately, since some blind people are this way, the burden is on the rest of us to prove to people that we are not all this way.
People think that blind people are naturally odd because that is what they have been shown. That is our own fault.
It is the fault of those who exhibit this behavior. The rest of us get stuck with the result. Is it fair? Well, what can we do about it...?
We see people who are socially aucward. Why? Well because they are not socially accepted...because they are not socially acceptible. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the guy swinging in his chair won't make many friends.
all we can do is make sure we don't do it, and if you like, go one step forward and tell other people not to do it.
I have some sight, so if I ever see a blind person doing it, if I'm close enough, I always tell them how silly they look.
OK I've been following this off and on awhile since my last post.
I've known several blind people, and worked with some.
I have never seen someone rocking incessantly in the work place, I wouldn't know about the eyeball medieval torture - that still sounds like somethin' you all are making up.
But interesting how you all justify or whatever this 'you're not like the other blind people ...' stuff. Well, I saw a racist once who said to a friend of mine, 'You're not like all the other niggers I know'.
Oh according to some of ya, that is normal. Right? After all, we were in the right part of the country for it, and I guess the fact I didn't go along with his shenanigans is a blindism? After all I probably distracted the racist because he expected a response of something other than cold silence. And his perception and public display of it was in fact the norm, so according to some of you all, that'd have been 'inappropriate'.
There are strange people who do strange things, probably rock obseesively, maybe even poke themselves in the eye ... but certainly obsessing about others is one of the most distracting and challenging to deal with.
Of course one wouldn't want to be distracting others on the work place.
So this discussion of medical issues - is this an elderism? I have not known any blind people do this, but most older people I know do it.
While I as an employer wouldn't want a distraction in the workplace, I also wouldn't want someone who can't keep their damn nose (or probably beak) out of other's business. Nobody likes a busybody, a wannabe fashion critic. They tend to get expensive when they get loud about someone's dress or attire, and that person ... uh well, was gonna pay the company quite a bit for product.
I don't buy the bs about not being like 'all those other blind' like I and apparently you all, have heard for most your lives.
Doesn't that tell you something? It did my African American friend. The distracting events do happen of course, among the blind or the homeless, or the African-American or any other cross sections of the populations.
And hey in a workplace maybe since we're gonna go the whole way, women can't be emotional beyond a certain point? Oooh, I can see the objects flyin' over that one.
But distractions are gonna happen. You're gonna run into Pink Pan Handler outside of Starbucks, and you'll smell him from two blocks away. You're gonna run into someone at work that you don't like, or really distracts you.
It's not like they don't know. They know. And who are you or I to tell them?
The question is, are you adult enough to either avoid the situation or tune it out? Maybe not? Well there are lots of others out there who are ... and the employer had a reason for hiring them. You live in a capitalist society: nobody hires people (for real) just to feel good ... it's what they get out of it in profits.
Good luck with that: There's always gonna be people that drive ya nuts, the nutty part being you can't really stop them. You can call it a blindism, a womanism, a negrism, a crackerism, a hispanism, a gayism, you can just walk down that line till it ends, but it's gonna happen. And when it does, if you insist upon obsessing over it, you'll just keep on magnifying it in your narrow little imagination, just like that racist fellow did. You'd might support him, it was pretty normal in his parts. All cross-sections of all populations have weird people in them, and the problem with stereotypes is they aren't without merit, they're just usually magnified to the extreme. Not all black people rape, steal, kill, not even most of them.
Not all white people in suits lay off single mothers, wreak havoc on neighborhoods by artificially inflating property prices and then dropping the ball. Not even most of them.
Not all women in the workplace look for opportunities to sue over being offended, not even most of them.
But you listen to the right people and you could come up with stereotypes for all these. Or as you all call it 'isms' ... ah yes, that must be the pop psychology feel good word for it.
There's a rag mag out there for everything, Jews, Latinos, blacks, white males, everything. And some of ya sound like you're working really hard at comin' up with a rag mag for the blind. Only the irony is, it's from the blind. Now how about that? That's ... real innovation: target the group from within. All you'll have left is people saying what that racist said ... "you're not like all the other niggers" except it'll be blind people instead.
My African American friend had the good sense not to feel complimented by such a totally *pathetic* statement.
Good luck peddling the rag mag on the street corner for ten bucks. Maybe you can come up with enough money to make your little militias and things. The rest of us will be watching, because it's not *normal*, it's entertaining, like going to the zoo, at least till you take the next step and move on to small-time explosives.
Oh wow this post made me chuckle for some odd reason...and I agreed with most of what you said. However, it seems like you are okay with blind people rocking in theirr seat, poking their eyes out, and drewling on themselves and passers by. Should we turn the other cheek? I hope not. It is wrong, wierd, and inapropreate. I use to have certain blindisms and guess what...I lost out on many social activities because of it. So, I told myself to be aware.
I haven't read all of these posts cause there are alot but I was brought up in a very loving environment and taught to always speak my mind. While I try to do certain basic things i.e. match my clothing, brush my hair/teeth and interact in an appropriate manner with people, letting them drive the conversations when appropriate etc, I can't say I've ever had these problems. Yes, I tend to get obsessed with things, but I also know when to discuss them and when not to. For instance, it wouldn't make sense for me to discuss computers or Greek things with my parents or with my friends who don't know about them or to discuss blind-related things with people, unless they're honestly curious or it's just something trivial. Mom stopped me rocking and putting my hands in my eyes when I was a baby, so I never really had to worry about that. Still, I do appreciate it when people are honest with me and I always try to be the same way with others. I'm not the type to sugar coat, to lie or to say things simply to save someone's feelings, though I might tell them in a gentler way if possible.
To post 69:
Yep, ya did, you told the only person who could do something about it , *yourself* and you won the game, as it were. And I'll bet you won it by minding your own business and settling your own affair.
No, I don't make a point of telling women when they're too catty, gays when they're too queeny, people of southern origin that they gotta get rid of the accent cause it makes them sound like a bunch of uneducated sheepshaggers, or men for bein' pigs.
Whether it's 'ok' or not, well that's really not up to me now is it? Last I checked, I'm a member of the middle class eekin' it out with the best of 'em, but not king. So last time I checked anyway, it really wasn't up to me to say whether it was 'ok' or not, it's their life. Now if it afects you, say one really did drool upon you well smack 'em upside the head. Not much in there anyway, but for sure, you have a right to your space.
If their actions 'as a blind person' (whatever the hell that means) really did affect me, then my actions would really have affected someone else's , for which I have no concrete evidence. And then there's, um, what constitutes an action as a blindo?
People basically see whatever they want to see.
People judged me for 'not being a good father' when I had to work at an office at all hours. I was no workaholic, but was just trying to make sure we all had a roof and things.
No I didn't make appearances just to 'show' people that I was modern or thenthitive or Daddy Daycare. Though in real life I changed plenty o' diapers, cleaned up plenty o' puke, read lots o' stories, all the rest. The fact I didn't always try to make an appearance to 'show' certain things has apparently not caused too much grief in the long run.
Same for bein' blind: I may not do certain publicly distracting things, but there's always some crackhead looking to see a little more appearance of one thing or the other ... it's like crack for real, they never get enough.
But the important thing is that you as an individual do the very best *you* can and leave off with the rest.
For me to be convinced of the effects you all say exist, just one person who has claimed to be 'inspired' or whatever by something I did, would have to have demonstrably changed somehow, giving some other blind person tryin' to catch a break or eke it out or whatever, a better chance than I got.
Nope, never seen it. Hence, working the equation in reverse, I don't believe for a moment that someone else performing a post-lobotomy McMurphy from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest , which you describe better than a DVS movie ever could, has ever limited my opportunities. After all if two and two make four, then four minus two make two. So as to whether it is 'ok' if they, (whoever they is) do one thing or another, I guess maybe I'll have to decide that if I ever become supreme dictator. Then again there's always just the tiniest possibility I might have other priorities.
Robozork, I definitely agree with what you said. I think being obsessed with one's actions is almost as much of a hindrance as the actions themselves. While I would definitely encourage people to leave certain behaviors at home, I would also encourage people in public not to worry so much about it, unless the behavior is directly affecting you in a negative way somehow, which there are some that do.
If the sighted world cared as much about what the rest of sighted people did, there would be no time to think about anything else. I just try to be as socially appropriate as anyone else whether I am blind or not.
to whoever said it's our fault as blind people for making sighted people have negative perceptions of us, I couldn't agree more. it's no one's fault but our own, cause of the poor habits some of us have. ditto to another poster that said only we can correct said habits; right on!!
Agreed, but when I go out there, I don't represent anyone except myself. I suppose one could say that I represent all Greek, blind, 26-year-old women born in December, and so on, but I fail to see how one individual can be said to represent the whole of any group, unless that group only has one member. That said, I'm very judgemental of some ethnic groups etc. and I'm sure even they have decent individuals in them. It's just that enough of them have made an impression to give me these opinions. Most sighted people haven't met someone blind, and don't study or read about them alot, so how can they make an impression based only one one person they happen to meet or know?
I totally agree! No one represents anyone other than themselves. It would be like sighted people saying every sighted person represents them. Think about it.
My argument is simply this:
Should we allow such outlandish and nasty and oh yes indeed, annoying habbits? No!
Now, I'm not gonna sit and judge but just please don't humiliate yourself and the rest of us. I just told you all that I am not perfect...no sir...I try to better myself. Just for the love of all that is good in the world behave yourselves in public.
I think it's interesting there are several recent topics about this or similar issues. So what percentage of blind people do you think does this sort of thing? The way people go on about it, you'd think it was some sort of epidemic and only a tiny handful of chosen people have been able to rise up out of the muck of blindism to be fully assimilated into the normal of normals that we're all supposed to want to be. I'm going to have to put myself on the side that says the only person's behavior I can change is my own, and sometimes I might screw up without knowing it. This whole argument about advocating or not advocating certain behavior to me seems like just so much of an intellectual exercise. Honestly, if I said I disapproved of somebody's lifestyle, are they going to say, "oh looky, Godzilla-on-toast disapproves of my life, I'd better change it to make him happy with me." No, I expect they'd say, "Fuck you, mister, I'm going to do what I want and you should go mind your own goddamn business." I think we as blind people are too hard on one another, and human nature is no excuse. If you didn't think it was fun or otherwise like doing it, you'd not waste the time and energy, right? I just don't think most sighted people are so lacking in important things to do that they spend most of their time monitoring and analyzing what we do in comparison to what is normal. They are more interested in getting shiny new faceplates for their iPhones or who won American Idol than anything we're doing. Plus, dare I say it, but anyone who believes in all seriousness that if he sees one blind person, that person is just identical to all other blind people is nothing more than a fool. When you guys go out and educate the public, make sure and emphasize that we're all individuals. I think we're all safe to just relax and be ourselves within reason when out and about, keeping in mind the manners and good sense we've all hopefully been taught. I also don't think it would hurt if we all decided to cut each other some slack and mind our own business. Those of us trying to learn about how to get along in life want support, not fear and judgment, even though I understand treating people like shit is supposed to be barrels and barrels of fun compared to being nice to people.
Godzilla-On-Toast, you make a great point there. We are all individuals and if people do not see us that way, it is their fault. We are in a free world and should live how we would like to live as long as it is not harmful to others. No one should ever be telling you how to live. If they do, tell them nicely where to shove it you know eh?
I understand that point and I agree. But we are perceived as wierdows, retards, and rejects because certain...ehem...people in the blind "world" do such things as rocking about, wiggling around, and so on. I will not say, "don't poke your eyes out!" Why? Because that person is free to act as they wish. Just don't be shocked when you are ostrisized.
If people decide that I'm suddenly like the last blind person they met because they figured out I'm blind, more power to them, but be prepared for a little surprise.
Oh I agree. They will be shocked...or they won't. Hopefully they will. Hopefully we can teach them to know better.
I'm aware of the perceptions, but perceptions are not reality. I'll tell you this. The reason why I do not believe there is a certain way for blind people to look and act that'll just impress the planet and crash down all the misconceptions is this. We do not bring all the funky behavior on ourselves at all. People act funny around us because they are afraid of blindness just as an abstract concept. Doesn't matter how competent we are, people are afraid to go blind and are only thinking about hwat a sad and pathetic life they would have without the eyesight they grew up with. Then what they do, in an attempt to identify with you, is try and merge their hypothetical projections into reality, and it doesn't work because the two things are incompatible. Consider also that not only blind people but all disabled people as well as people from foreign cultures, religions, and other things also fall outside of most people's comfort zones, and people act funny around anyone who falls outside their comfort zone. Consider also the other side of the perception coin. Who's to blame, if you need to blame, for the perception of the blind as amazing, always positive, brave, patient, infinitely polite and grateful, etc, oh, and don't forget all the superpowers and the extrasensory perceptions we're supposed to have. Those are just as mythological as the blind person as village idiot.
Understandable, but now compound on to that logic the fact that while perception is not reality, it is still out their. Picture this:
If we acted more socially "normal", we would lessin the chance of beeing viewed as bafoons.
I'm not convinced and I still hold to my beliefs. We may have to agree to disagree here.
I agree that a lot of people can't imagine what it's really like to live without sight, so many of them go with their assumptions, which, according to their actions, would appear to be inaccurate, but there are some who go the extra mile to find out more before they treat you like the type of person they assume you are. I am incredibly greatful for these people, because they have shown that they can really think outside the box.
Yes I know plenty of people like that...what a breath of fresh air.
We're not talking about sighted people, though. We're talking about the blind community.
If you sit next to a person on the bus who is half in your seat, breathing heavily through their mouth, talking loudly on their cell phone and smelling like 3 days' worth of not showering, your first thought is not going to be "Wow, what an interesting person, I want to make friends!"
In the same vein, a sighted person that sees you on the bus rocking sporadically back and forth or stooped over to far your forehead's about an arm's length away from your knees, perhaps talking to yourself or also smelling like 3 days' worth of not showering? Yeah, you're not going to give off a welcoming impression.
Once again, boys and girls, we're not talking about being the model human or the model blindy. We're talking about common, accepted, and constantly reinforced social norms that make crowded spaces more bearable for everyone.
I agree. The message is, act like a human, get treated like a human.
Yes. We did go a little off topic here, but I do agree with Margorp's post here. It should be a simple message.
Act like a human? For some reason that doesn't sound too desirable. From our race come some of the worst and most shameful examples of life.
that might be true, rask, but we also have shown some of the best of it.
Think of the heros of the civil rights movement, the people who resisted hittler, the people who go to disaster-ridden countries to offer aid and assistance, all the instances of compassion ever shown in our history.
but a previous poster was right. if you have such blindisms as pressing your eyes or rocking back and forth, and yes, the majority of blind people I have met have them, you're not going to make friends and you're going to have a fuck of a hard time getting employment, and it's noone's fault but your own for not learning the proper way of behaving, and maybe partially your parents or teachers fault for not nipping it in the bud early.
do I get annoyed by this? you bet I do. because I'm sick and tired of people saying that I'm not like other blind people because I don't do these things, because I attempt to make eye contact when I talk to someone, because I'm dressed in clothes that matched or because I'm clean.
It annoys me because I have to deal with people like this and I don't like it.
so yes, I try and stop it or point it out when i see it or notice it, because it needs pointing out. in many cases it hasn't been pointed out before.
I definitely agree that it is the responsibility of the parent/guardian to discourage this behavior as a child, and the responsibility of the individual to remember this when parents or guardians are no longer present. It's difficult to blame someone for their own habitual behavior if he/she has no idea that it is considered socially inappropriate.
Would you really respect someone who comes up to yu and tells you how you're not like all the other ones? Doesn't this just sound like a *story*? Similar to what the black person I mentioned in Post 68 experienced? The real question is, why would you believe them?
In case you were never informed, if someone comes running up to you eager with the latest "news" or forwarded email about the woman down the hall, what makes you think that in two minutes from when you're gone, this person won't do the same to you? So if someone claims to you or me that one of us isn't like all the other blind people out there, I mean, why would you believe their outlandish tales of woe while they try and sob story to you about what they saw on a bus? And for that matter, what's keeping them from entertaining themselves at your expense, or mine, later. Everyone has flaws; all they need do is start making a bogeyman story out of it. And what business is it of ours anyway?Does it not sound like an axe to grind? I mean seriously some of you, what would you think if a man came up to you and started saying how you just weren't like all the other girls out there, they are all so ... this that and the other ... well most women I know would flag the guy as *loser*.
Same goes here. If you could waste away your little life chasing shadows, attacking windmills, and righting the wrongs in all these supposed blind offenders, you'd still have a mass population who will still make up these tales, whether they saw something themselves, or know someone who knows someone who knows someone who saw something.
Why would you give them even the slightest measure of credibility? In the first place, they obviously spend a lot of time people watching and looking for flaws - which are gross, numerous, and sometimes downright hazardous in the human and animal populations (not the least of which is this very tendency).
Second, they've the audacity to present themselves as the Inquisitor of said people, and you're supposed to be complimented on passing the heretic test?
I imagine if you're running into these folk frequently, there's either an agency 'for the blind' near you, or something similar. Imagine if guys approached you saying you weren't 'like all the other girls they knew' only to find out these guys' only experience working around women was at a Women's Maximum Security Correctional facility.
No these folk are like raccoons: You sure as hell shouldn't feed them, they'll tear up your gardens, rip off your siding ... and bring around more of their kind. They may be cute, at least to some, but you don't want them around. Don't be obsequious to them when they do that; they're not doing you a favor. And they probably all came out of an agency nearby or something By the way you talk, it sounds like it anyway. We all run into some rumor-spreaders like that once in a while, vermin being a part of nature. But if they're that numerous where you are, I'd say here's to gassing them out, baiting them and / or running them off ...
I believe them because I have seen how the majority of other blind people behave.
It's not about respect, I give everyone I meet basic respect, but to get more from me it takes more than just talking to me, but I certainly do believe them because I have seen the behaviour for myself.
Why is that that a lot of people say that a majority of blind people behave that way? I know plenty who live very productive lives, have careers, are very respectful and well respected, make plenty of friends, and pay their own way.
Yes but I also see plenty of this piss poor concern for social situations within the blind community.
I agree with Miss M's post. Almost all of the blind people I have met in person have been odd or socially offputting in at least some way, that I considered to be a blindy way (rocking, unusual and poorly timed jumping or flailing, poorly chosen subjects of conversation, inadequate hygiene etc.). I realize that not all blind people behave like this, and I realize that plenty of sighted people may do the same things. But I think it is important for us all to pause and give those who stereotype us a second chance, as hard as it can often be. Far too many blind people have never been taught better.
I agree with OceanDream / Post 96:
I have heard such tales of woe, and sure, we all find people in society we find more or less desirable in any number of ways. But here's how most of the blind people act I know:
They bust their ass, they work, they do all sorts of things.
There's people on here do quite a few neat things: some are teachers, some into medical stuff ... then there's us computer gearheads floatin' around here somewhere. There's the web site where they do a radio production or podcast of some kind on home improvement by an older country blind guy ... I've used his stuff more than once around our place. I have known two blind people into emergency communications of some kind - Ham and other stuff - for which I bet the Katrina people were probably grateful. I certainly know nothing about how to do that. And, I found out, they don't even get paid for it; they do that volunteer on weekends / sorta like the volunteer EMT people or something I guess. That's sure not losers; that's a really important - though pretty unknown - service to the community.
Then there's all the blind people that run these sites like BlindMiceMart and other places, where we can buy the stuff we gotta get like canes and the like; can you find that at Home Depot? I don't think so, though if you're adventurous you could get a dowl, some reflective tape, your average pocketknife and preferably some booze to pass the time and start shaping away ...
Then there's all them that teach newly-blinded how to read Braille and other stuff. Do you have the patience for that?
I read once that blind / disabled people on average work a lot harder for employers, put in extra hours, all sorts of stuff like that. And I can believe it: we all know how hard it is, so we all just make the most of it. It wasn't until this past year I even paid any attention to so-called blind community siteslike this and Klango. But on here, at least, well most of the juvenile stuff touted as blind, it's just teenagers. You ever go on Facebook and you'll find a lot of the same stuff.
People have made similar claims to yours about any population that can be segmented from the mainstream, artificially and otherwise. Only usually their antagonists come from without, while in the case of the fishbowl some claim is a blind community the majority of the antagonism and bogeyman tales come from within ... kinda makes me reminisce of the old Alice Cooper stories teachers would tell parents to scare them off of us getting his albums. At least it keeps the storytellers entertained.
I don't contest you notice it; it's the sort of thing that, well, gets noticed. However what you don't notice is the average blind guy with a laptop or cell phone or something, just doing work or reading, when in the coffee shop or on the bus. That stuff just doesn't sell records / get noticed. And a lot of things on here attributed to being blind, I think we've all seen in other populations; the guy talks to himself on the train, somebody needs a combination of a scouring pad, a can of Lysol and a garden hose; some crackpipe political type getting loud and annoying in the square when you're waiting for the train. All these people some of you could claim as having a blind-ism, the major problem of course, their visual hardware works. Ah well, don't let that slow ya down; wouldn't wanta break up the party or nothin'.
Oh and BTW, the people I do know in real life who consistently tell stories like you are doing also do / think the following:
- isolate themselves from the general population
- beat on even retarded kiddies, because they all think they can reform them
- think Africa's problems are all because black people just can't govern themselves
- think Hispanic people are lazy
- think Scotts are lazy
- think waterboarding is just fine
- think the U.S. should invade / annex Mexico
... and lots of other ... "normal" stuff
sounds like you got company.
What I think is, one thing leads to another. The excitement just wore off like the first freebase and they ... kinda had to move on ...
But this doesn't make such people credible.
Everyone deserves a second chance, but the thing is is that there are a lot of people out there who will take no notice of people when their behaviour is pointed out to them as looking odd, or the fact that they smell bad. they just keep right on with their way of living...
I think it's just the fact that effects us more because we are a minority, and so we want to change the way that we are seen by the majority. it's as simple than that, and am I ashamed of it? no way.
Nor should you be ashamed of it. The fact is, I see this odd behavior...and I am ashamed! Yes, I hate to say it but I think "glad I don't do that" but then I think that no wonder the blind are frowned apon.
Hi everyone. I'd like to renew this topic by bringing up a book that I read which poses some very interesting social questions for us as blind people. This particular primer instructs men on how to pick up women. In it, the author suggests that men do such things as touching women on the back or shoulders while talking with them, not looking at them directly while listening to their conversation, and taking up space with our bodies and possessions as a sign of dominance. This guy says that CEO's behave this way and supposedly applies this to the art of dating. My theory is that we couldn't ever get away with this stuff as blind people because it would add to the social awkwardness mentioned above. Also, blind people aren't perceived as powerful, so even if these techniques are practiced by those in authority, we would be thought of as wannabes for trying to posture in this way. I'd love to get perspectives on this, especially from people who may be fully sighted or who may have partial sight. Are these types of behaviors actually practiced by those in power or is this author just blowing smoke?
Eddie
Only blind women might see that as a sign of dominance...the rest of the world would gladly spit on us for doing so. We are seen as abnormal...end of story.
Yes, women would see that as a sign of dominance, but really, you might not want to come across as this super dominating man, most women have had enough of that. I think what the author is portraying, is a picture of not so much a dominant man, rather a confident one. For example, I do those things, mentioned above, but only when I feel the woman is comfortable with me so that she finds the behavior atractive and comforting, not overwhelming and creepy.
So for example, once you are sure that a woman is into you, you might guide her by the waist someplace, or rest a light hand on her shoulder if she is sitting away from you and you are standing behind her. But you would not just start out with touching.
The whole taking up more space thing is just a matter of standing in a wider stance, for example, showing that you are comfortable in your environment. If you have bad posture, or feel uncomfortable and attempt to do this, you will feel like you are just posing. So feel comfortable, feel confident, and mostly, aproach women in a very friendly way, not like you are going to perform a corporate takeover. But yes, some touching, and a bit of letting people know that you are in charge, at least of yourself, is a good thing. This goes for blind and sighted men alike.
It's rediculous to say this stuff means we dominate women. When you project an air of confidence these days you are accused of shovinistic tendincies. Give me a break.
Margorp you're right.
Wanta know something else? The women who insisted fifteen years ago they wanted a self-effacing sissy of a guy have subsequently thrown this semi-castrati out the window and gone out for a bad boy just to balance out the universe ... and done what feminist types do best: blame the guy, aka the castrati in this instance.
And what they do second best: not really solve the problem but punish a group of innocent bystanders for the actions of some aggressors. All the while the cowards that act aggressively towards women get away with it.
Watching their chenanigans ought to be enough for blind people to see it's no good backlashing against the sighted population, or blaming / making assumptions about all sighted people for the actions of some. Basically any group does this, innocent people get hurt, and usually the ones doing the offending get off free.
Disgusting.
And then the reputation stays with those who neither take part, nor approve of this sort of thing, and these are the people who are stuck trying to fix this, through no fault of their own.
Responding to post 96, the answer is that the blind people who are just getting on with their lives, have good social lives, having careers etc are less involved with the blind community. People in the "blind community" don't see as much of them, and aren't much more aware of them than they are of the people they call "sighties". When people describe the majority or minority (depends who you ask) of blind people, they really mean members of the "blind community".
The "blind community" is obsessed with analysing its members. Not only do they analyse the independence, employment status, and social lives of members, but they even get worked up about how blind people travel. If you don't travel by bus, you may receive criticism from members from the "blind community". That's right! you may be told off as if you were a child who swore at his mother.
Ocean Dream - when the blind people you described are socialising, are they obsessing over the independence, employment status, social lives and transport arrangements of other blind people, or have they got more interesting things to talk about? I expect the answer is the latter.
I admit I have met many blind people who care way to much about the skills of other blind people. It's odd.
These blind people I speak of rarely talk about being blind period, much less the social awkwardness aspect of it.
it's the same for me.
Seriously, there are so many more important things in life than who behaves appropriately in public, and who doesn't. And socially acceptability is so relative.
quite true.
The last part of this thread has been particularly interesting. I can't speak for everyone here, but I know that as a child, I had it drilled into my head that the sighted public will see one blind person, and assume we are all the same way. It would be interesting to hear from those of you who lost your sight as adults to see if you were exposed to this kind of thinking. Maybe with this as a premise, that as blind people many of us were brainwashed into thinking we are "embassadors" to the sighted, we look on other people who are blind in the same way, and don't want others think we all act in the same way, or have the same mannerisms.
Lou
I was born blind but was not told this bit about having to represent all blind people. What a thing to put on one person's shoulders. I've heard plenty of people who bought into that one. Hey, how about the one that says you're supposed to be so many times better than a sighted person at, well, just about anything, just to be recognized or get a job or whatever, I forget exactly why. This is silly because you'd think a sighted person would do things just about as good as they can be done, so you can't be better than that, can you?
I was born blind as well, and grew up with the notion that my actions were representative of the blind community as a whole. I bought into it for a long time, till I thought of how silly it sounded.
I was never brought up believing that I represented the blind population. I was told to represent who I am and what I value, and to try my best at what I did.
As was I. Everyone is responsible for their actions, and their actions alone.
to screaming_turtle, i used to poke my eye when i was younger, but that was also because of comfort more than anything else.
I thought it was some sort of stress reliever. how the heck did i grow out of it was when my uncle growned "ouch, my foot hurts" when he would do that he acted like he was limping and putting his hands to cover his eyes and such. as soon as he did that, i would stop poking.
Weird, but it did help.
he would do that all the time whenever he saw me poking my eyes.
Wow. Interesting technique. Probably more effective than some. I know when people told me to stop doing whatever it was I was doing, which was nothing much usually, I would say "Thank you" out loud, but in my head, I'd be saying: "Shut up and mind your own business, you narrow-minded assehole!". Okay, a little harsh, I know, but that's what usually went through my head during these times.
I grew up hearing that I somehow represent all the blind. As stupid as it sounds, I fed into it. I think it is a shame that many of us are told that and I must wonder why that is.
ditto; I wonder why we're told that too.
I've never understood the idea of representing the full blind community. No one person can do it.
Still, the important part is that you should represent yourself properly. The blind community has a lot of awkward associated with it specifically unique to the blind, and the suggestion is less "you should represent everyone" and more "stop making yourself look like a goddamn creeper in public."
Of course, this board isn't law, nor should it be. It's just a helpful hint.
Of course, certain simple common sense should apply here, at least, if you're planning on getting a job and making friends, but it bothers me to no end when people see you and say: "Oh, there's another blind person.", like we have no individuality whatsoever.
I was at a friend's house yesterday and he was telling me about the time he met this blind woman.
She was elderly but that has nothing to do with it. See, he was having a normal conversation with her and at one point she started meowing like a cat. Now, that is an example of how not to behave around others.
Wow...strange. That's definitely a new one.
I was debating on including this story on how one blind person somehow gets linked to us all. Many years ago, I was rushed to the hospital in an emergency situation. Everything turned out OK. While I had to stay in the hospital for a week or so, one evening, one of the nurses came in and told me: "I was really worried when I heard that a blind man was comming up from the emergency room, because I met this individual (name omitted)." She went on to describe how obnoxious this lady was. Turned out I knew her, and almost went into heart failure to think I was being compared to her. Its kinda funny now, but it wasn't at the time.
lou
Of course there are things you should probably refrain from doing in a social situation. If you want to do it on your own, who's to say you can't, or shouldn't, if that's what you like, but still, how can we attribute all of these behaviors to be something of the blind community, or even people with disabilities in general when there are plenty of so-called "normal" people out there who engage in behaviors that might be considered strange for many.
I should say the meowing like a cat or something does seem rather unusual and I've never heard of it. Make you a study of African Americans in the 19th century, and while you're at it, of Native Americans as well, and the pamphlets that were distributed. Many stories rendered to turn the general population off.
Even cannibalism was reported so that undue and unjust behaviors could be exacted on populations. Amazing how said cannibalism generally occurred, according to these people, on incredibly fertile lands with sufficient food. Never the rocky mountain terrains with little natural resources.
The same could be said of us, and if anyone had an attitude because a woman came into a hospital, saying 'The last woman was so emotional, so hysterical, ...' And you know that nobody on here would see that sort of response as anything less than sexist.
I have often wondered why is it that rendering this sort of response to any other group is considered socially unacceptable, while doing so against us is just fine. Now after following this thread, I consider myself rather educated as to why. Well if 17th to 19th century thinking is what you want, perhaps those with this mentality should go the whole way and brand themselves on the left cheek with La Fleur.
Historically, nobody has targeted a group with said bogeyman tales without the prospect of reaping some advantage. I've yet to figure out what that would be for us, since we're such an inconsequential minority being outnumbered by several endangered species. But malintent is malintent and there are more comparisons than contrasts between what is discussed on here and those made against other groups in the past. Heretofore I had thought this was basically a case of urban legend / storytelling based on a few odd exceptions, but after reading this board, I can't help but note the historical parallels, only those blind people who believe they're being complimented by it, are either quite drugged by it, or generally senseless.
I can tell you that such behavior is not rare within the blind community. Indeed, it seems to be widespread. The question is why is this?
To be honest, I don't get the point of this entire rant, but who am I? There are plenty of socially inept sighted people. Oh yes, zillions of them. I have a choice and so do you. Take the good from them, try to change them or ignore them. The first and third options are by far the most beneficial to you and them. Since when are any of us the arbitrators of the right and norms?
remember, many so called normal behaviors are culturally and socially based. What someone else does or doesn't do is none of our business.
Finally at the end of the day, if someone is so uninformed that they will judge you by someone else's behavior, is knowing them a good thing? Educate them but if they are still stuck, walk away.
Thank you Turricane.
yes, thanks a million!!
I agree with Turricane. And my prior historical parallels probably bode more for what kids don't read anymore, what they don't study in terms of the political systems and mentalities which caused some of the atrocities of the past. Not enough to know those things happened, better to know the propaganda which was circulating among the masses about the mistreated.
Interestingly, many anti-gay people use precisely the same arguments as were used by the people opposed to interracial relations, including the 'marry an animal' business. However, when you point this out, you'll see they've never looked into it and don't even know there was propaganda offered up to the masses regarding black/white relations, or Native Americans never caring for themselves physically, or any number of other issues.
Although an interesting way to look at it, I don't think - at least in America, although I know it to be different in some other countries - blind people are demonized or outcast simply for being blind. It may earn you some curious questions or blatant stares, but it's often the way you carry yourself that is judged more than your blindness.
And once more, about the sighted population - we're not talking about them, because this is not a site geared toward sighted people. This is a site made for and by the blind community, and that is who I and all of you should be addressing.
And, once more even again, this is not a thread to hang people who act outside of the norms. This is a rant at the discomfort associated with me personally having been sitting next a large blind teenage male rocking violently in his chair, hooting and clapping his hands at random intervals. Or having to talk with a blind girl about having to wash herself more thoroughly because she smelled terrible. Or having to explain to a blind man that mumbling to himself in public could be heard by everyone else around him.
It is, as always, just a heads up: Sometimes the stuff you do is just not the best choice of action in a situation. Self-awareness is the goal here.
Yes, I agree that how you carry yourself is crutial in a social situation. You can't blame others for your lack of social inclusion if you don't even try.
Miss M, thank you for starting this thread and well said. I totally agree with everything you said. I’ve been observing the same observation since I was a little kid and have always felt like blind people were really, awkward and that I don’t fit in. I’ve been totally blind since birth and my mom always told me that doing all of those things was wrong and that the sighted would not like me so I never did them. I went to public school my entire life. I tried the blind school for one year when I was seven but didn’t like it because everyone was immature. The rocking or swinging the head I find pathetic and don’t really understand why people do that even as a blind teen or an adult. When people tell me that, a blind person is doing that I seriously want to shake the blind person and knock some sense in to them. I have actually gone up to the person and told them that it looks wrong but they don’t care and continue doing it. Why can’t blind people act normal like the sighted? The talking about only one topic is annoying. I think I use to do that when I was a teen but grew out of that and why is telling people about your medical condition normal. The sighted don’t do it why should the blind have the right to do it. Why do the blind like to touch people? Honestly, that bothers me and I’ve actually told them that if they touched me one more time that I was going to hit them. I’m going to be very honest, I don’t get along with my own which is the blind not because I don’t want to but because I haven’t found a normal blind person. I’ve also encountered blind people that laugh at everything even if you are being serious, or they make weird voices and have to be clowns. The sighted don’t make weird voices for everything they express then why do the blind get too do that. I just find the voice changing ridiculous. I’ve also find that the blind don’t think that they have to act like the sighted. Why not? What makes the blind so special that they don’t think they have to follow the same rules as the sighted? I’m not saying any of this to offend anyone I'm just saying how I feel and that you should stop the awkward behavior and blend in with the sighted. You shouldn’t stick out with weird behavior.
Raskolnikov, You said that worrying about what people say and do online is pointless, well know it isn’t because other people's behavior will make you look bad because the sighted see that and will think that all blind people are like that, which is what I think. You yourself said that most of your interactions have only been through this site so really you don’t know. You also said that everybody knows the net is a perfect environment for all kinds of stuff. Okay so then all the blind weird people keep your weird behavior and don’t learn anything since online you’re accepted and forget about what the offline world is like and thinks.
Friendly Philosophical Rachel, my mom points out the mistakes but she has gone overlord to the point that it’s not helpful but damaging. If you criticize, someone too much with no positive feedback on what they are doing right it is damaging. I mean it is to the point that just because she doesn’t like the way I do my hair, I’m wrong and the sighted will view me wrong. I do my hair fine because my sighted friends tell me that it’s fine but my mom wants perfection.
OceanDream, I don’t wear makeup either because I don’t see the need. People should just accept me how I look normal and putting makeup to me is like deceiving and covering your true self up but I’m getting off topic now because that’s not what the topic is about.
I will admit, there are some behaviors that seem to be more common among the blind, but I still don't think it's fair to generalize. Just behave appropriately in public, whether you're blind or otherwise Although, I, too, can't stand it when other blind people touch me without my permission, with the exception of my family and my significant other, but that's a different story altogether. I understand some people are really curious to get a feel for what you look like, but asking is always better than touching, unless you and that other person already have an agreement between the two of you that it's okay.
I do agree with Turricane and I will say this:
Now I have said this many times in the past, but blind people are looked at sideways just because they are blind. Social aucward behavior or not.
miss m, get over yourself. i know plenty of stinky sighted people. i know plenty of them who make inappropriate coments. ignore them and move on. they are not part of your life.
Post 138:
You seem to be very closed-minded. I went to a blind school for 4 years, and while I met very few normal people while I was there, the ones I do know are a blessing. Maybe you should break out of your bubble and realize that you are stereotyping just as bad as sighted people are. You saying that you represent the blind community is not only self-absorbed, because no one person can take on that role, but also a terrible burden you have to carry. I bet that you're confident that you're living up to that role, but who, outside of your family and friends, sees this? While I agree that blind people should carry themselves confidently and act appropriately in social situations, so should sighted people. Sure, sighted people don't seem to take as much crap when they wear clothes that don't match or they don't take a shower, but we, as a society shouldn't control what's normal and what's not. That person who smells awful and doesn't wash his clothes, whether blind or sighted, needs to take care of that problem on his own, have his friends or family help him learn the necessary skills for looking presentable, or if mental health issues are contributing, he needs to address those and get help.
As a person who's been labeled the posterchild of a blind school just because at one point I wanted to go into psychology, then verbally abused just because I didn't follow through on that, and being put into the same category of losers I graduated with, I know how it feels to think you have to impress everyone. Hell, I still have days when I wonder if I'm good enough, what my place as a blind person is in life, etc. But let me tell you, trying to live up to an undefined ideal is damn near impossible. And I think identity crises happen to everyone, whether they're blind or sighted, so I wouldn't use my blindness as an excuse for that.
you go screaming turtle!!!!!!!!! Your thoughtful message is right on target and most impressive!!!!!!!! pat yourself on the back!!!!!
Screaming turtle, that's the part I'm trying to scratch at here. Everyone's different and has had different experiences, and the general population gives any minority a lot of crap.
The difference between the sighted majority and the blind minority is just that: sight. Visual observational skills. A blind person can't see someone's nose wrinkle because they stink, nor can they see someone shift uncomfortably in their seat because of the conversation topic, nor can they see everyone in a room staring at them because they are violently rocking back and forth.
In a lot of cases, the people that care about you won't tell you. Because they don't want to hurt your feelings or because they're used to it or because they simply don't want to broach the topic. That's where you get the "freaks" in blind schools - even in a school designed for those who can't see, does nobody still speak up and try to explain the merits of good posture or appropriate voice level in a small space?
You're not representing the blind community. None of you are. I am not. You're representing yourself. I'd just like to see more people in the blind/VI world be more self-aware.
Persevere, I have actually met sighted people who over-discuss their medical condition/s, laugh too often during a discussion, and find nothing wrong with touching or poking people. You are indulging in some serious stereotyping, and you're obviously closed-minded.
And Miss M, I believe your incentive for wanting more blind people to be more self-aware is so that they don't make blind people look more unusual and less independent than they supposedly already do.
Many people already think blind people are unusual or helpless, so deal. Even if the entire blind and visually impaired dropped all their bad habits and blindisms, it still wouldn't diametrically change sighted people's views of blind people.
Exactly. People judge, as has been said many times in this topic, and people assume, whether they see this behavior or not. Many of the Blind/VI community are self-aware, just as many sighted people are not. It's about the person, not about his or her ability to see.
As I have said, it doesn't matter what we do, we will be viewed as the blind.
We've all got to be viewed as something. Would you rather be viewed as the criminal, the cancer victim, the bitch, the child molester, the imbezzler, the thief,murder, wife beater, quadroplegic, homeless person, and many other things.
Certainly not.
wow.
Yes. I never really thought about it that way, but Turricane has a good point. You can get around being viewed as blind, and if people can't overlook that, then it's their loss in the end, but being viewed as a criminal, if it's true, well, I guess that's really your loss, isn't it?
True, I do still see more social...um...difficulties amungst the blind. Perhaps that's just me.
I still say that's only because we're a minority population, so of course a certain group of behaviors are more likely to be seen. If the ratio of sighted to blind people in any given situation is 100 to 1, you probably would see 1 or 2 sighted people doing strange things, but flip that ratio the other way at say a convention, and you might see more of these behaviors exhibited.
screaming_turtle, Convoluted Conundrum, and everyone else, I might be closed-minded but I’m going by the blind people I have been around. So just like I have the same view that miss m does it’s because the blind people that I have met are immature, like to rock, make weird voices and be clowns. Perhaps if I hadn’t met blind people like the ones I have described in my two posts and the one miss m has described then perhaps I would not have the view that I do and also I might not feel so weird and out of place with blind people. I also never said the words that I was representing the blind community and I’m not living up to any role. I’m just being normal like the sighted around me. I also still have days when I wonder if I'm good enough, what my place as a blind person is in life just like you and I’m not using my blindness as and excuse for the identity crisis. I’m simply stating how it is for me.
See? This is the problem. This is why some people see being blind as a bad thing, because they are going by the assumption that all blind people are like the ones they have associated with. So does this mean that if, for example, you know a few teenaged girls who like to try to steal things, every teenaged girl steals things, just because you met a few who do?
right on, Jess. why generalize just cause you've had bad experiences with a few people? think of it this way: if the tables were turned, how would you feel if people acted that way towards you?
In theory, generalizations are not good. However, it is human nature and is not an easy thing to fight. It's just gonna happen.
But not everybody does this.
exactly...
And for some of us going on the blind people we've been around, we see some rather odd ducks and others that live and work and raise kids ...
So it's just assumption. So then with this form of "data analysis" (speech users that was in quotes), perhaps I would then come up with a conclusion that maybe its the conventions and centers that do this? After all I haven't been to a convention or one of the centers described on here, and in general blind people I have met pretty much cross social, gender, sexual orientation, and occupational boundaries like any other group comprised of people with a common non-racial physical characteristic.
But if Idrew that conclusion about said conventions or centers, many would rightfully think I was ridiculous. True enough: about as ridiculous as those who postulate what seems to be the running idea on here.
P.S. The Imperial Wizard of the KKK also claims that n*****s don't shower because they don't know they smell and they don't like soap.
Can't say I've seen an inordinate amount of stinky African Americans either. But whoever claimed thinking like this made sense?
I can tell you that this "data analyses" is indeed sound. While it is true that not all blind people act this way, many seem to. I have gone to camp, conventions, and gatherings featuring blind people and you have two groups. The normals and the blindows.
The normals...well are normal (comparitively.) The blindows swing about, poke themselves in the eye, and smell to high heaven. Now, I will admit that sighted people do this as well, but we are talking about the blind community.
I have to admit, I do make generalizations all the time. Shock, gsp and horrors!!! The one I most commonly use is "people are interesting. They are fun to meet. I can probably learn something from the encounter." Sorry, I must go shoot myself now.
It's the negativity that tends to get the attention. If you don't believe me, watch the news, and keep track of the current events. Which ones do they make a bigger deal of, the positive or the negative? I think this is the problem, and not that there are people who poorly represent the blind community, and therefore, create these so-called "generalizations" of us as a group. Is it these people who are the problem, or the generalizations and assumptions people form around it? If you claim to be "normal", or that you don't do these sort of odd behaviors, then get over what people say about it, live your life the way you want to, and stop blaming the blind community. If you saw a sighted person sleeping in a dumpster, would you go and say: "Those damn sighted people. They must really have no respect for themselves"? Probably not, so why do the same with the blind community?
Ocean dream on post 155 you can say what ever you want about this topic but the fact is that it makes the people who do these things look badly by perpetuating a stereotype and there making everyone around them uncomfortable. The thread I think was started so that we could express our discomfort and view on the topic so you can say that I’m wrong in thinking this way but I don’t think so. I will always think that blind people rock, make weird voices, touch people, and act like clowns abnormal and I know I don’t fit in with my own. Until I meet normal blind people this won’t change. In addition, yes fighter of love the tables have been turned on me and it doesn’t feel good but like I said that’s not the point here.
What is "Normal"? And please, please don't post a definition of it from the dictionary. I'm sure we all know more or less what the dictionary definition is. There are societies where people get married at age fifteen. There are kids who would rather watch more mature TV shows, and adults who like to watch kids shows. All of these people think there respective behaviors are normal. Unless the behavior is affecting you directly, why should we complain about how others carry themselves? If the behavior disturbs you, walk away and avoid it in the future. End of story.
My question from my previous post still stands: If you saw a sighted person sleeping in a dumpster, would you then go and say: "Those sighted people must all have no respect for themselves."?
touche ocean dream!!!! you get it!!!!
Ok, here is a story. There is this male person I know who rides on the train with me. He is perfectly sighted. This guy is a real honest to god miser. He's a bachelor. No, dear readers, on the weekends, he does not read maxim, penthouse, hustler or playboy. He sits down and devours barons which is a financial paper. He says he goes from cover to cover. When he talks about all his stocks, you'd think it was a girl friend and he was having a peak experience. He eats the same food everyday. I mean the absolute same food. If he has to get a different choice, it is extremely stressful for him. He had never heard of an ipod and netflix. Anyway, he also has lots of other weird habits which I won't go into here. At work this morning I was talking about htis guy and someone said he's eccentric. If he were a blind dude, he'd be abnormal.
OceanDream, to me normal means when you act like the majority of people do in your society. The behavior does effect me directly when you have the sighted ask you why don’t the rest of the blind people act like you and also when I meet a blind person and feel weird because they are acting so weird with the voice noises, they touch me, laugh at everything, and act immature around me. So yes, it does affect me a lot. I also feel out of place. Oh and yes, I do walk away right away, that is why I don’t fit in with the blind because I have walked away. I’m totally blind, have been since birth, and have always felt like this. I really didn’t have to come on this board and say all that I did but I said everything because the thread is up. To answer your question about the sighted person sleeping in the dumpster, if that was the only sighted person I met, then yes I would say that the sighted had no respect for themselves.
pw, what a damn shame; that's all I can say on the matter. we've all been in your position I'm sure where we've had to explain to others (blind and sighted alike) mind you, that we're no different. as turricane pointed out, there are sighted individuals who have weird habits too...and I'm sorry you're so ill informed as to assume it's only blind people who act in such ways. I hope one day you come to learn that life is what you make of it...you can choose to see things as they are, or see them from your little bubble of how you perceive them to be. hopefully you'll also come to realize one day that you're no better by criticizing others; if you really take issues with how other people live their lives, maybe you should think about how you can make things better instead of complaining about something you're obviously very, very misinformed about. there are successful sighted and blind people, just as there are people (blind and sighted alike) in the world who choose to do nothing with their life. I, too, have been blind since birth, so maybe this will help shed some light for you. I assure you that once you stop putting so much energy into what others think of blind people and focus solely on yourself, you'll live a much happier and fulfilling life.
You know, I never thought this thread would get as big as it did? I can't wait to see how much longer it goes on. I really just wanted to blow rage onto the internet.
So this evening I'm in my garage with the outer door open, the inner one closed of course, and was packing the bowl of a brand-new pipe I just got. Had the basketball game on in the background, and the neighbors came into the driveway, and here I am, puffing a pipe in a culture where it's 'normal' and popular and trendy to turn one's nose up at tobacco.
So when these neighbors meet you all, they'll probably go on and on about how they're glad you aren't like all those other blind people that smoke up in the privacy of their own garage, within a few feet of where they have to get out of their car. Pretty damn weird, I know: Here we are living in an over-thenthitive culture and I have to go blow it for all the global blind population by loading up a bowl, lighting up and having quite a time of it!
Poor baby robo dude.
when my next door neighbor packs a bowl it is an illegal substance. He sits in his hot tub smoking dope and listening to good music. Believe me, I don't complain. Maybe if i'm nice enough he'll ask me over sometime. Whoops, I didn't just write that.
miss m,
It's a great topic. Obviously it has touched the nerves of many of us and caused us to think. That's the beauty part of this medium. Congratulations and keep on posting.
I did consider how that one came out, once I'd written it. Um? Been awhile ... lol
Well, in that case, all I have to say about that is, what a shame. If you want to be alive and well in the social world, I suggest you stop generalizing so much, but hey, that's just one person's opinion. Maybe you'll find a group of people who also like to generalize and make assumptions, and you can sit around and talk about how the world is just one big mistake, since you've seen some people make a mistake.
You say you don't fit in with the blind community, because blind people are abnormal, so I guess that means you include yourself, since you are blind.
Ocean Dream:
I don't find rocking normal, I don't find making noises normal, I don't find jiggling about normal. Am I ignorant? Am I closed-minded? Should I go run naked down the street and see what happens? Yikes!
Said behaviors, as was expressed elsewhere, apparently occur at centers and the like, closed environments. And certainly they are strange, though far from the only or even the strangest, of things some people will do.
One could not judge all black folk by what is done in projects, or all of a certain age range based upon what one sees in a rehab center - The Amy Winehouse kind I mean.
As to the 'blind community' bit, it still seems to me like rather an artificial fishbowl. I have begun to get to know some people on here, and this particular site is geared to topics specific to the blind. However, whether or not you get along with someone, and whether or not that person has a particular hardware deficiency, may be mutually exclusive. Perhaps there is a blind community, in the more modern sense, where because of the internet, people of a common interest or whatever get together. To that end, there's a birdwatching community, a cigar smokers community, no doubt Martial Arts, as has been expressed on this site in its own right.
Even in software, development community is described as a whole, plus broken down into sub groups, aka SQL developers' community, etc. However, these are more categories than actual demographic data, or cultural subgroups. Within each, you certainly have language or references related to commonly understood phenomena, at least commonly understood to most members.
In short I wouldn't worry too much about it, because it's all pretty virtual. By virtual I mean when you go online, you naturally gravitate to areas of interest or problems you are trying to solve or whatever. However, in real life, it's a lot more of a mélange rather than isolated pockets.
You may hit up a fine pub, for instance, but one of your friends with you will only order Bud Light. Or you may hit the trails with friends, a veritable hiking community if you will, but for the first part of the trail anyway, you pass all the tourists squinting through disposable cameras trying to get a picture.
And yet, before you went on the hike to begin with, you may have gone online to a hiking community forum, learned some stuff about the new area, perhaps some new sights to not miss out on, etc., and in that virtual community it's just hikers. However offline, it's much more nebulous.
Same with being blind: More so perhaps in many instances because the blind are such few in numbers. So outside the Amy Winehouse rehab agencies, you probably won't have this problem. After all, you won't see many people in real life disagree that some of these behaviors are in fact abnormal, but they don't practice them.
I guess you could look at online "communities" as a concentrate, like what you buy in the stores. In regular life it's all watered down and spread out. I had this same discussion on another hobby forum where a poster thought we all went out and blow thousands of dollars on the hobby, like we were a bunch of luxuriant aristocrats. And no doubt some are, but for real, it's just a concentrated space, so many exchange ideas here and there, but in real life when it's all watered down with everything else you're involved with, it won't amount to too much trouble.
And there are no official overseers of any of said communities, you just fit in or not as you wish, or rather I should say, float in and out based upon what you're after or what peaks your interest at the time. You're in college, so the amount of "communities" you're involved with is probably staggering, not just a few hobbies and the like. And plus, the blind thing is more informational / seeing someone else has dealt with a situation in the way you have, perhaps found a better way or whatever.
Oh I do not put such actions on all of the blind but much of the blind. I know many well-to-do blind people.
margorp,
you have boundary issues. what difference does it make what someone else does? So some blind people rock. If it pulls your chain, don't associate with them. You might be missing out on a worthwhile person who has issues but that's your choice. Hey, I have friends who are fans of a show that was out in the '60s called dark shadows. They go to conventions dress up and all that stuff. Is it weird? To them no but to me, well I wouldn't want to attend. They have lots of other great characteristics, so I overlook their weird fascination. No one of us is perfect. Perhaps, i find all your criticism totally annoying. However, you say many other things that are worthwhile. What should I do be your friend and ignore the views which might annoy me, or write you off as a negativistic person? I would take the first option, but you would pick the latter. How sad.
You know, I'd much rather associate with a person who rocks, pokes their eyes etc., and maybe help them to see that that's not normal behavior, than a person who's stuck up and thinks they're hot shit because they don't exhibit those behaviors, and just turns up their nose at the sight of them. Of course neither extreme is preferable, but if we're going to be a community, then I think there should be a middle ground. It seems you hear about the exact opposite ends of the spectrum far too often, and this isn't just related to blindness either.
Boundary issues? Interesting analysis. I am only drawing from my personal experiance...take from it what you will.
I will freely admit that I'm pretty much a bitch. I have told other blind people in my age group - privately, of course - that some of their behaviors are not appropriate or are making people feel uncomfortable.
But then again, "tact" doesn't really exist in my dictionary. I made a thread in the Daily Living section, if any of you want to check that out, for the more positive side of this rant. It's been there a while.
hey, miss m.
being a bitch can be a good thing. it's an accronym for a babe it total control of herself. i'm proud to be a member of that club as should you be.
Hey, there's nothing wrong with not liking those kinds of behaviors, and nothing wrong with expressing your views about that, and that's not what I'm trying to get at. It's the generalization that every blind person is like that that really gets on my nerves. If those people find this sort of behavior attractive, well, then, I guess they will be some of many people you do not have enough in common with to be social with them. But generalizing is a very socialy risky thing to do as well, if you ask me.
I also have to say, I completely agree with Turricane and Screaming Turtle. You might find those who rock, poke, and make oddn noises kind of, well, odd, but one thing I can say for them is that they probably aren't very uptight about the types of behaviors going on around them. And if they are, then they are no worse than the rest of you who are.
screaming_turtle, I’ve tried to associate with them and have tried to get them to see that the behavior is wrong but as OceanDream said, they aren't very uptight about the types of behaviors going on around them, so they don’t care. I wouldn’t generalize if I knew blind people that didn’t act that way but that’s all that I know.
Exactly. I was trying to say that while you can't make a person change, you can at least try to have a positive influence on them rather than think you're better than them. If you can', well at least you can say you tried. I also agree with Miss M in that situations like this are difficult to be tactful in, you really do have to be blunt because no matter how you bring it up to someone that their behavior is odd, they'll most likely take offense to it. But like I said, what it all comes down to is extremes. There are entirely too many of them in the blind community. The NFB preaches independence at all costs, often to the point of arrogance, all the while emphasizing either you have to be great or you're nothing. The ACB, on the other hand, well, let's just say they're much more accepting of these socially awkward behaviors we've been discussing. I know I may be generalizing, but I'm sick of there being no middle ground, no representation of average.
Let me tell you I am the type of persone who does his best to really get along with all people. Even if I find people who act odd I will try to befriend them and let them know that such behavior is not the norm. If they don't listen, I avoid them because I can say that I tried.
Yes, but the point is not that you avoid the person without having tried to help them; the point is that whether you try to help them or not, you avoid them anyway just because they have one or a few bad idiosyncracies. In my opinion, that's just like refusing to befriend a smoker who refuses to stop. I could even go out on a limb and say this behavior is prejudiced.
I do like to try an educate those people and if it doesn't work I let it go. I am not bringing people down;the goal of this topic is to educate.
So, please oh please try not to act odd.
educating the person is ok but think carefully about what kind of behavior you are dealing with. I mean obviously rocking and meowing are weird. Someone who may do other things you don't like could be just weird. They'd be that way no matter their visual accuity.
Here's an example. My daughter wore a dress to church yesterday. It is a gorgeous one that we picked out with a conservative friend as adviser to wear to her brother's wedding. On the way home, my friend said as how the neck was too low and she ought to think about not wearing it to cbhurch. Excuse me, but that's her personal opinion. It was fine at the wedding and is fine today. So she educated my gal and me, and we elected to kick her comments under the bus where they belong.
Also if one wants to "educate" someone, perhaps it's a good, decent and civilized thing to do to gain their respect first.
Every parent knows this: people say if you have one child you're obviously spoiling. Then there's the religious zealots and the like.
Besides that, if the person is not my charge, then it is not any of my business what they do. Perhaps some on here ought to have been cuffed a few times growing up, being told "That's none of your business!" An old saying perhaps but one I should think is well worthwhile. One mark of civility is that ability to tolerate differences in others around. I am not suggesting you make a close friendship: I'm as likely as you to move to the other end of the train if someone stinks or what they are doing is overwhelming, but interfering on unwelcome territory is just as bad, just as barbaric, just as primitive and uncivilized as what you all conjecture.
Perhaps both extreme groups in fact deserve each other.
screaming_turtle and everyone else, no I don’t think I’m better than anyone else although I know this is the way it comes across but that’s only because we aren’t talking about this by voice but typing it. I don’t have a big ego. I’m not able to be tactful in situations like this and I’ve been called a bitch before just for saying that the behavior is wrong. That’s fine, they can call me a bitch but at least I said what I had to say. Oh and screaming_turtle don’t get me started on the NFB, they seem cultish to me and I read a thread about the NFB on here and will pm you about it because I don’t want to get this thread off topic.
margorp I do the same exact thing that you do.
robozork, even if you gain there respect it really doesn’t matter because when you tell them about the behavior they will call you a bitch because that’s exactly what happened to me.
It's "their respect," not "there respect," speaking of awkward.
why is being a bitch a bad thing? I'm a babe in total control of herself and proud of it. Thank you very much for the compliment. Most often that epithet is used for two main reasons. 1. the person has a limmited intelligence and vocabulary and 2. because they see a ring of truth in what you say so strike back. either way note it and move on.
ladies and gentlemen, let me show you a survival tactic.
when someone says or does something we do not like we all should say the following. Please repeat after me slowly clearly and with inflection. "thank you so much for sharing that. " It's inocuous and i can make a hasty retreat with dignity and teeth in tact.
I guess what we're all driving at is that, at the end of the day, you just cannot win.
As a side note, I've heard that bitch acronym far to often. blah.
well margorp,
i guess we are even because i'm sick of your negative attitude so blah to you too.
margorp
since you don't appreciate my accronym for bitch here is one you will get easily
So
Terribly
Unkind
Pittiful
Inconsiderate
and
Dumb
Wow I am all of thoose things? I guess you learn something new every day! :)
I guess my writing comes off as horribly pesimistic...ah well, what can ya do?